Pastor Tim Keller

The Joe Dallas post left a really bad taste in my mouth, so I want to be fair with showing what others have to say who are less loathsome with this topic even though they still believe homosexuality is not compatible with the Biblical ethic. Tim Keller is one of those people who even though we disagree fundamentally on this (his "flourishing' argument is one of the easiest to take apart), I respect his Christ-like approach and tone.

I give equal time to Michael Coren, and not just because he looks like Keller. 

Something About Robert

When Rob Bell said God was accepting of homosexuals, it really rattled the Evangelical world if you knew the place Rob had with them. Evangelicals felt it was a deep betrayal and turned there backs on him with calling him everything from a reprobate to a 'Dark Shepherd,' it didn't help when others sided with Rob like Brian McLaren, but oy, like most on my side with the Bible and homosexuality, they're just really crummy with debating. Rob is new to this and it's too early for him to stand up to anti-gay prats like Wilson who's good at slipping things into the conversation as a given. This is unfortunate because If you have ever heard Rob preach, you know he's a brilliant speaker, just not now, just not with this.

Rob is debating Andrew Wilson and of course Rob looks like he doesn't know where his car is parked.

He should have answered the question directly. Yes Andrew, the Bible and Jesus don't say it's sinful. Now what?!

Notice how Wilson implies those who believe like Rob don't get their view from the Bible, but instead get it from wanting to move people forward in history with a worldview? Rob should have stopped him right there and made it clear that the only reason he now believes as he does comes from Scripture, only Scripture, to win this.

Paul wouldn't be saying; "That's just great guys!" If two men were in a relationship at Corinth because he wouldn't even be saying that to a straight couple in Corinth. Did Andrew forget Paul said it's better to be single and if you HAVE to marry, do it so you "don't burn?" Paul saw ANY relationship as taking away from the work that needed to be done with bringing people into the Kingdom with the short time we tarry on this Earth.

Rob should have turned the question back on Andrew with saying; "Are you saying Jesus was talking about homosexuality because He was talking about "sexual immorality?" Because the Greek word Paul is saying for sexual immorality, porneia, in the passages you just quoted me, Matthew (5:28), Romans 1 (1:29), Revelations (18:3), it never refers to homosexuality. Fornication, harlotry, but never homosexuality of two committed men or women.

Andrew prattles on about the creation account that in no way CONDEMNS gay unions in Christ and notice he brings up Moses? Not any other patriarchs who had multiple wives and concubines, just Moses with the one wife. Still not a very smart move on his part when the Bible narrative hints Moses had two wives in the book of Numbers.

Rob should have stopped him again when he said 'arsenokoitai' is the active and 'malakoi' is the passive in a gay relationship. See how he makes it sound like it's a given? James White does this same thing when discussing these two words.
(Rob by now looks like he wants to hide in the bushes outside of the studio)

When Andrew is giving the line that gays in his church have left homosexuality, I'm glad Rob at least brought up the examples of gay Christians he knew who are active in the Body of Christ. There are countless testimonies of men and women that Andrew is ignoring who serve God in their gay identity, AS a new Creature who died to self IN a resurrected life in Christ. Slander and greed are offenses against another and against oneself, homosexuality isn't a breaking of "Shalom" Andrew.

I don't know what Andrew is trying to say starting at the 12:10 mark, even Rob had to ask. He's wrong though with saying all scholars believe as he does, a fact admitted by Gagnon and White with saying they are now in the minority, and that the early church had this view of homosexuality the church has now, it didn't. Andrew doesn't see church traditions with homosexuality being wrong, but he will be the first to say we should leave church tradition behind because these are dead traditions. Andrew can't go to Paul's words, he can't go to the Torah (when he says "Torah," he really only means Leviticus), he can't go to the prophets (When did Micah talk about homosexuality?) because they don't make these sweeping claims prohibiting homosexuality which he says they do.
(Rob is now looking at the host like he just got caught shoplifting hairspray)

Andrew is right with hinting Rob didn't bring anything to the table to change his mind. I do give Rob credit for calling out the bias of the host.

I do want to add one more thing from a personal perspective. I won't break bread or drink of the wine with someone like Andrew Wilson. I don't call him a brother in Christ and I know he won't call me brother. I will with someone like a Frances Chan who even though he believes as Andrew does, does it from a place of reluctance with what he sees as staying true to the Word. He's also willing to change his mind on this subject if a solid Biblical argument can be made. Something Wilson would never do no matter what truth is brought to him.

Julie With Waffles

When I leave a comment on YouTube, I'm always surprised when I go back and it's still there. I'm not kidding. I almost want to send a little handwritten thank you note and a 5-dollar Lotto scratcher in gratitude.
My comments are always with teaching, sometimes a rebuke, but nothing I wouldn't stand by if Christ was looking over my shoulder with what I wrote.

I won't delete comments on this blog or on my YouTube channel unless you insult me, you're promoting yourself or some goofy site, links, unless they're delicious hotlinks.

----

I realize I only give the perspective of a Christian gay man. This is a site from the perspective of a Christian lesbian for all the lovely lady lovers out there.

Julie Rodgers

Nadia Bolz-Weber

When I was first putting this blog together, someone pointed me to Nadia. I became a fan.

"As a teenager, I began to question the Great Christian Sorting System. My gay friends in high school were kind and funny and loved me, so I suspected that my church had placed them in the wrong category... Injustices in the world needed to be addressed and not ignored. Christians weren't good; people who fought for peace and justice were good. I had been lied to, and in my anger at being lied to about the containers, I left the church. But it turns out, I hadn't actually escaped the sorting system. I had just changed the labels.

- Nadia Bolz-Webber.   

Joe Dallas

I try to stay within theological circles when debating homosexuality and the Bible because you take what theologians say with more weight because of their specialty. I wouldn't go to a toffee maker to learn how to take out my tonsils; I would go to a physician because he went to school for it. Now, with that being said, there is also plenty of room for lay Christians to make compelling arguments and even refute these learned scholars because I believe God gives discernment with His Word no matter where you are in the Body of Christ. Great or lowly, each plays a part. I tend to leave these lay Christians alone, except for a few bloggers like myself, even if they believe the opposite of me because I believe they are entitled to their respective opinions because their opinion is not one coming from leadership. This will not be the case with Joe Dallas who's taken up a leadership mantle for himself.

Joe Dallas is not only all wrong for his anti-gay bile you'd hear from a typical preacher touring the church speaker circuit, but he's also a detestable and smarmy human being who tries to make money off of it* (I have never written such harsh criticism on this blog about one individual and that should tell you how this man is in a class all his own). He is yet another "ex-gay" who at one time claimed (some refute this) that he was involved in the early gay church movement and brags he knew Troy Perry who founded the first official church made up of gay Christian believers called the Metropolitan Community Churches. When Dallas left the church and turned against it, he didn't just turn, he turned into a monster against it. Dallas did the unthinkable by saying gays are child molesters and being a "former" homosexual himself, it was like stabbing all gays in the back with what he knew was a lie, but he did it anyway to pander to the ugly religious crowd who at the time said that gays deserved AIDS and were pedophiles. He also made it his mission to tell gay Christians that they are liars who are fooling others by pretending to be Christians because that's what HE did. He not only told gays this, he told everyone who hated gays this. If "Gay Christianity" took on human form, Dallas would stab it 72 times and then run it over with his car over and over again all the while laughing.

Whosoever.org is a site filled with Christian love, but even they couldn't hold back reviewing Dallas's book by saying; "In this book, Joe Dallas distorts and misrepresents everything that Gay and Lesbian Christians have accomplished in the past 30 years... Joe Dallas uses out-of-context selected quotations from Gay Christian leaders in MCC and in other groups to support his rejection of the facts about the "ex-gay fraud." Any person who has accurate knowledge and experience with MCC knows that every congregation and every pastor has a great host of problems to face and handle as best they can. No church is an easy task for the leaders. The Metropolitan Community Churches, however, in the face of sometimes deadly opposition, have given spiritual support and acceptance to gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people for many years. In this 30th year anniversary of MCC, the desperately needed spiritual and practical help given by this great Christian ministry speaks for itself.
... This book by Joe Dallas is a destructive and unfortunate misrepresentation of the Bible and the so-called "ex-gay" cause."

A kapo with no conscious for being what he is and a despicable Judas to the fledgling gay church is an individual that I have no name for. I've never seen such a man so ripe for the Gehenna pit.



There is a book that is counter to Dallas' book; "A Gay Gospel?" From a Missouri Pastor called; "The Rebuttal: A Biblical Response Exposing The Deceptive Logic Of Anti-Gay Theology" by Pastor Romell D. Weekly.

*Dallas bilks his customers with talking to them on the phone for less than an hour and charges $225, then offers the needed "companion book" for $200 through his sham organization called "Genesis Counseling." A group that isn't accredited with any health organization because they all refute reparative therapy as harmful and is becoming illegal from state to state as we speak.

Gagnon and Anal Walk into a Bar...

This comment is from Jason Westerly, a commentator on my Disqus service, on Robert Gagnon and it's worth repeating here:

Preface: A fan of Gagnon happened to stumble on this post and said he found it offensive. He didn't find any other post offensive that showed Gagnon twisting the Bible like a double pretzel, but THIS post was way too much for him with besmirching the character of Gagnon. It's like Jason Westerly just insulted his school girl crush.

I give Mr. Westerly the floor.


"Reading through several of your published works and discerning your arguments, this is your hermeneutic:

1. God created things to follow a heterosexual order - the natural way biology functions.

2. Anal sex doesn't do this. Therefore it is a serious disorder.

3. Exegesis of all relevant bible passages condemns anal sex.

4. Jesus probably would condemn anal sex.

5. Paul did condemn anal sex.

6. Gay committed loving relationships can involve the practice of anal sex, therefore God condemns them.

7. Gay committed loving relationships are not really loving relationships because men are more promiscuous than women.

8. Though the civil marriage contract reduces male promiscuity, we must prevent homosexuals from engaging in marriage because that would reduce their promiscuity and add stability to their relationships. This is because God does not approve of loving committed homosexual relationships because there is anal sex.

9. Although homosexuals complain that the marriage ban restriction has harmed them and their relationships, making them very difficult to keep together in today's social and economic environment, they must be prevented because God condemns them because of anal sex.

10. Although homosexuals as well as various studies recount that orientation is very difficult to change and that efforts have resulted in enormous psychological damage, we must continue to encourage them to try, provide prayerful help, and provide assistance to maintain celibacy. We must do this because God condemns committed loving homosexual relationships because of anal sex.

11. If we permit the ban on civil marriage rights for homosexuals, then we will fall down the slippery slope to polygamy, incest, pederasty and other horrible things. We must not permit the ban to be lifted because God condemned committed loving homosexual relationships because of anal sex. God spent a great deal of the Old Testament enabling people to prevent people from doing things. Therefore we must prevent the ban on civil marriage for homosexuals to be lifted.

12. Notwithstanding HIV transmission in Africa and the practice of anal sex among heterosexuals in North America, homosexual anal sex must be singled out as the primary vector for sexually spread disease. It is important we place emphasis on homosexual sex practices to the exclusion of others because God condemns loving committed homosexual relationships because of anal sex.

13. Speaking out against homosexuality is fraught with peril. People may yell at you and tell you that your viewpoints cause violence and hatred. You will feel oppressed while you are yelled at while doing the oppressing. But, we must carry on because God condemns loving committed homosexual relationships because of anal sex. We must discourage violence as much as possible so people don't go to Africa like Scott Lively did to help them pass laws encouraging the assassination, murdering, and burnings of homosexuals. We must do everything possible to try and disconnect our rhetoric and the apparent coldness of heart we exhibit toward them from such violence lest our indications of God's complete and utter condemnation make people inflamed, angry and violent.

14. Jesus demanded we love our neighbor. We do this all out of love. Even though they wail and scream and cry and demonstrate enormous personal and group suffering, we must press on because they are sinning horribly by having anal sex. Even though our message brings them to leave the church in droves, except for a pesky few, we must inject ourselves in civil secular society. We must do everything possible to gum up any chance of their lives improving, such as by removing bans allowing their relationships to strengthen, because this encourages more and more anal sex. And, God hates anal sex.

15. Although there are few verses in the Bible regarding anal sex, they are significant. Anal sex is condemned by God and we must, no matter the cost to anyone, continue to do whatever is possible to prevent homosexuals from having stable relationships because God condemns them because of anal sex.

16. Although Jesus says to love your neighbor, the six or seven scriptural passages condemning anal sex mean loving our homosexual neighbors means we must prevent them from having civil rights allowing them to form stable relationships that in any way symbolically or legally equate their relationships with heterosexuals because God hates anal sex.

Conclusion:
We must do whatever is possible to attack homosexuality because the natural law sitting at the base of our hermeneutic says anal sex is gross.

Dr. Gagnon, are you perhaps a goat?

- your happily married (19 yrs together) Christian homosexual fans."

Leviticus Loves Deuteronomy

This post is worth repeating because the argument is being brought up often.

Dark Vision

If anything was a testament I'm on the right track with pointing out anti-gay "Christians" and their crusade against gays they claim not to have, it's the case with the charitable organization; "World Vision."

World Vision was a Christian-based organization that helped the poor and hungry across the world as a Christian-based type of Red Cross. It's not an exaggeration that this group was the face of Christians putting their faith in action with the Gospel in Jesus saying; "Did you feed the hungry? Did you clothe the poor? Because if you do it to the least of these, you do it to Me." It's the largest charitable Christian organization in the world.

Now they started to realize there was no reason to exclude gays because gays were already serving in the organization. The public part was they said a gay Christian working for them could have a partner and that being gay didn't stop you from doing the work of God.

You thought the gates of Hell opened with this public announcement by WV.

It started with Franklin Graham (a little about greedy Franklin) saying WV "doesn't believe in the Bible" with the "ungodly" decision making him "sick in the stomach." The same Franklin called on all Christians to boycott Wells Fargo bank because of a commercial that featured a real-life gay couple and their real deaf daughter who they adopted. This commercial, according to Franklin, was too much in hating of a loving God. He told all Christians to boycott the bank, including pulling the money from his own multi-million dollar organization from Wells.

(Franklin's decision ended up biting him back when he put his money in a different bank that was just as gay-friendly as Wells Fargo if not more so. His new bank sponsored a gay pride parade and made a make-shift wedding chapel in one of their bank branches for the specific purpose of marrying gay couples).

The next thing to happen was Christian after Christian goose-stepped like dumb little birds (another example was "Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day" which was a direct affront to Paul saying love doesn't demand its way or sow discord with those outside the church) by contacting World Vision saying; "We won't give money to the poor or hungry because you don't have a problem with gays that we do." World Vision was so cut off for funds to the point they had no choice but to reverse themselves and say; "We will exclude gays just to make you happy. You can now go back to feeding the hungry and helping the homeless."

Of course, those who pulled their support justified themselves with the same excuse a wife-beater gives with blaming the victim; "You made me do this to you!"

I wonder how these people will fair when they stand before God and try to justify they stopped doing the work of a Christian because they didn't like the person making string beans in the soup kitchen? 

"It's astounding to me that Christians would take food from starving children because a gay person might have helped in getting it there. I'm also just so, so dismayed that this is yet another instance in which Christians are telling the world that their feelings about gay people are stronger than their compassion, that their anger over gay employees is greater than their anger over starving children."

- Christian Columnist Kristen Howerton on this incident.

 

Bubbeleh Ben

Great discussion on trans/gender identity from the Orthodox Jew perspective in a tiny room.