Lemon Ham

I don't know what is going on with anti-gay Christians and posting questions for people to answer as a gimmick. First Brown did; "6 Questions for a Gay Christian." Then DeYoung went hog wild with; "40 Questions for Christians Waving Rainbow Flags (see that little dig in the title?)." And now Brown is doing more questions because the well doesn't run dry yet with questions for these people. I think the questions need to stop because people aren't looking for questions, they're looking for answers.

First, these are loaded questions, but still answerable without going into the direction the questioner wants you to go if you know how to do it.

1. Can you give me a single, unambiguous biblical example of a God-blessed (God-blessed = marriage) homosexual relationship?

You're trying to make a prohibition from a Biblical silence. Putting words in the mouth of Christ in saying He is forbidding gay marriage when He didn't say a word on it. Jesus was speaking on divorce and spoke about the historical fact of what happened in the Garden of Eden with the creation of the first man and woman. You're reading between the lines a moral absolute with forbidding gay marriage from what was only an historic narrative and saying it is forbidden out of sheer assumption from your bias. That's pure eisegesis.

2. Do you agree that every reference to homosexual practice in the Bible is decidedly negative?

No. I've showed the Centurion and his servant was a homosexual relationship and even answered Gagnon's 6 points in claiming it wasn't. Scholarly work on the historical record shows "born eunuchs" fit the definition of a homosexual male in antiquity.


Matthew Vines was brought up to me by someone and to be honest I've never heard Matthew speak. A while back I debated a man on YouTube who used James White* to refute Vines with being a gay Christian. I was refuting White's arguments against Vines' when I didn't even know what Vines said. I didn't want to listen to Vines AND listen to White's counter arguments that are almost 6 hours long (still with me?) because I don't have that kind of time so I just cut out the middle man, Vines, and went directly to what White said.

*White is cited most by anti-gay lay Christians who can't keep up on the level of a Robert Gagnon. The first thing out of White's mouth in the only debate I saw him in was a lie. He claimed the other written source at the time of Paul to use the word arsenokoite put the word in the context of homosexuality, it didn't. The source (Sibylline Oracles) used the word in talking about an economic injustice and not homosexuality that would have bolstered his point in the debate. I did a little digging and isn't the great scholar he claims to be.

White calls himself "Doctor" and this Christian-based website addresses those in ministry who claim that title for themselves (White is a side reference). Now, White has actually talked about this and it's another perfect example of how good he is with turning the tables with an argument an opponent brings to his face. Instead of being defensive, he goes on the offensive with making it about the critic being a Mormon with an ax to grind (irrelevant, facts are facts) how he has more hours over the Mormon's own credit hours (again, irrelevant and childish with saying; "I have more than you do!") and makes it sound like you're elitist if you question on-line schools. BUT, he's called out others on their own education and the only difference between my point that I would make with the Bible and White's is he has a "Doctor" before his name and solely on that people will give more weight to his points than would be given to the points of a lay person just as knowledgeable. White also mentions his degree from Fuller, a seminary taken seriously only by anti-gay Evangelicals that prohibits homosexuality in the school's own "Community Standard's" Policy.
The only other schooling White has received was from "Grand Canyon University," another on-line school who by their own admission are on par with ITT Technical School. It's not a leap to say no serious scholar on Koine Greek would take White seriously.

I don't bother with a separate post refuting White on the "clobber passages" because he brings up the same arguments I've already refuted on this blog and on a video by a YouTube poster named Tom Kent. White has two YouTube accounts (Alpha & Omega Ministries and DrOakley1689) that he's disabled all comments on and states you cannot copy or redistribute any of his videos because he's a control freak with criticism and fears he'll be refuted in comments, a valid concern that has taken place before and was the cause of his wiping out and disabling all comments. I noticed he's also a master debater, his bread and butter. The thing with master debaters is that they can make you believe anything with a half believable line, that's what they do.


elissa GRACE said...

Guys- popular vote, public sentiment, and modern views do not have any bearing on the authority of scripture. It does not matter who agrees or disagrees with the Author, it is a fixed revelation from mankind's only Creator on record, claiming to be your God who made you for HIS purposes, not yours. Now if that matters to you, you do not need to consider either James White or Matthew Vines- neither are authorized to mediate for you... in fact there is one man who mediates between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.... if you want to know what God means by what He has revealed, do not look to men for answers, God himself gives understanding and if it ends up changing your view, it's between you and Him- He strengthens the faithful and sets at liberty them that are captive. Trust your God, He literally died in your place so you don't have to suffer- He knows how to answer us, He knows what He is doing and He has let tons of shit slide to give us all a chance to seek Him. Men who claim to speak for Him are vain- you already know the answers because they are written in your heart. God would not have gone to the trouble of documenting something only a few men could understand... no, His word is there for each of us and He will explain it to you directly if you ask Him- not matthew vines or james white- but your God, ask Him. Peace courage mercy and wisdom to you all.

rottenqueerchristian said...

Welcome Elissa. I really do appreciate your impassioned input because we need more dialogue this. I'd like to get right to your points.

I'm assuming you're not personally happy with the SCOTUS ruling on gay marriage and what is the acceptance of homosexuality in the church body (following the acceptance of homosexuals in all aspects by the Presbyterian church, now I hear the Dutch Reformed Church accepts gay marriage) you may feel it goes counter to Scripture. My whole point of this blog is that it doesn't and I have shown that with flying colors.

This is the problem with your main point. Your fixed revelation from what you believe is from God may not be MY fixed revelation, or the fixed revelation of another. We walk on dangerous ground when revelation, and I agree with you on this, or even our feelings dictate public sentiment or modern views if it take precedent over the words of the Bible, the only thing that tells us who our God is and about our Savior named Jesus who is the Son of that God. If the Bible really is the inspired Word of God, we need to know what is says with what the authors intended it to say with their words. Paul says we are to have a defense with how we believe and the only way we can accomplish this is by searching in those words.

I don't see scholars on either side of this debate as "mediators" and I don't believe most people do. I do see people as being a type of "disciple"of scholars, but that's only because they are already set with what they believe with this debate, they just need a scholar to back them up.

Whether we like it or not, the Bible has been influenced by men such as Bible translators who never claimed to be inspired men. So we have to deal with what men have said who have given us the Bible we read today. The book of Revelations gives a dire warning to those who would change the words of the Bible and that shows it is a very real possibility men can and have.

These are beautiful words with trusting God who strengthens the faithful and liberates the captive and He WILL answer us Elissa, but the unavoidable fact is someone is wrong and someone is right in this "Homosexuality and the Bible" debate with what is a very real Heaven or Hell consequence. Both side have the conviction it is written in their hearts and both sides say from that place of conviction; "Thus sayeth the Lord."

As for my house? I will choose the words of the Bible over the traditions of church and men and that will put me squarely on the side where I should be.

God Bless You Elissa.